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God, destiny, Allah, nature (or whatever) must have a sense of humor. The party who redefined TREASON to mean dissent and criticism is now knee deep in real treason

Here's what GOP calls treason

  • Being a Democrat (Ann Coulter's book Treason) (1)
  • Being a union supporting teacher (Education Secretary Rod Paige (2)
  • Disagreeing with Bush's methods (RNC ad, 11/2003) (3)
  • Free Speech as Treason (WH says any opposition to Bush policies "at war time" is treason) (5)
  • The post 60's culture (Why John Walker Lindh joined Al Qaeda) (6)
  • Speaking out against war crimes (Kerry's treason according to Swifties) (4)
  • Exercising your right to vote for whom you want as President (Vote for Kerry = Vote for Bin Laden) (7)
Curiously enough, here is what the GOP does not call Treason
  • Revealing the ID of a under cover WMD expert
  • Revealing the ID of a CIA front company
  • Discussing documents marked Top Secret with journalists, for print
  • Revealing the name of an Al Qaeda informant
  • Revealing the information Churchill allegedly let an entire UK city be bombed to protect: US had the code for Iran's messages

Liberalism is treason
GOP's pundits, propaganda masters and administration officials spent the last 4+ years saying that The entire Democratic party is commiting treason
Ann Coulter defending her book on Chris Matthews' Hardball:

.. the Democratic Party, as an entity, has become functionally treasonable, including what you're talking about, turning over documents to the enemy... [it] is not that there are just a few dozen traitors out there. It is that the entire party cannot root for America.

Organized Labor is Treason
Education Secretary Paige calls teachers union ``terrorist organization''

Disagreeing with Bush's methods on the War on Terra is Treason

The ad consists of video clips from Bush's most recent State of the Union address, backed by ominous music and interspersed with on-screen text ... The second scrolling text says, "Some are now attacking the President for attacking the terrorists." Bull. Not one leading Democrat in Congress or in the presidential campaign has criticized Bush for attacking terrorists. They've criticized him for not attacking terrorists. Specifically, they've faulted him for attacking Iraq and pretending that this was a blow against terrorism.. (3)
Denouncing an absurd war and war crimes is Treason
Those betrayed do feel the treason sharply

Free Speech / Dissent as Treason
(I removed the Greenpeace incident due to kossacks feedback below)

Unnamed WH official: The President considers this nation to be at war, and, as such, considers any opposition to his policies to be no less than an act of treasonTreating dissent as treason - SourceWatch
The post 60's cultural revolution
American Prospect Online - ViewPrint: "The Roots of Treason, Explained

From Shelby Steele, writing on American Taliban John Walker on the op-ed page of The Wall Street Journal (December 10, 2001):

    Walker came out of a self-hating stream of American life. Yes, alone in Yemen and later in Pakistan, he may have been seduced by charismatic people. But he was prepared for this seduction not just by the wispy relativism of Marin County, but also by a much broader post-'60s cultural liberalism (more than political liberalism) that gave his every step toward treason a feel of authenticity and authority."

Kerry's "treason"
Was being "one of the team" and revealing wrongdoing by some members of the team which played a critical role in creating a climate of silence and shame for our returning Vietnam heroes and aided and abetted our enemies activities

Crucifying the CIA for the WMD lies
Created a climate of silence and shame for our intel agents who risk their life for US, and aided and abetted our enemies activities

Letting a city be burned to protect a code break
Apparently an urban legend, but it demonstrates the point I'm making: How serious it is to blab about US code breaking activities

Winston Churchill and the Bombing of Coventry
It has now become a matter of accepted fact, at least among the British public, that on the night of 14 - 15 November 1940, rather than compromise a decisive source of intelligence, Winston Churchill allowed the city of Coventry to be left to the mercies of the German Air Force.

the Germans sent the order to destroy Coventry in the second week during November. Unlike previous "Ultra" messages, which had always given the name of the target in code, this message gave the name "Coventry" in clear type. Thus, Stevenson says, within minutes of the order being given, it was placed in front of the Prime Minister. Faced with the prospect of leaving the people of the city to die or evacuating them, Churchill turned to Sir William Stephenson ("Intrepid") for advice. What Stephenson advised was that "Ultra" was too valuable a source of intelligence to risk. By evacuating the city, the Prime Minister would be exposing the source and endangering its usefulness in the future. "Intrepid" told Churchill to let the city burn and the people to their fate.

This is much the same story as told by Cave Brown, but the latter fills in a few more details. For a start he says that Churchill had the message a full two days before the raid. Again Churchill decided that "Ultra" was too valuable a source of intelligence to be compromised and so the people were left to die.

Bush WH telling the code break to an Iranian agent
Bush is no Churchill!
CBS News | 'Drunk' American Blabs To Chalabi?
He is alleged to have met in Baghdad with a top Iranian agent and disclosed to him that the U.S. had cracked Iran's secret codes and was eavesdropping on all Iranian intelligence messages.

Chalabi told the Iranians he learned about the code intercepts from an American who was "drunk" when he told him. What followed was a frantic exchange of messages between the Baghdad Iranian agent and his headquarters in Tehran all of which were intercepted and decoded by U.S. agents back here

A vote for Kerry is treason
Ingraham, Rush: Voting for Kerry is "aligning" with Bin Laden
LIMBAUGH: And, you know, whatever the liberals think or say, and the two are not mutually exclusive, a Kerry victory after the bin Laden tape, will accomplish this -- it'll give Osama bin Laden bragging rights all across the Middle East. Stop and think -- and ... and in the -- in the words of the Left, create a whole new generation of terrorists.
Revealing the name of our best source into Al Qaeda intel
Bush Team on Defensive Over al-Qaeda Leak One of the greatest coups in Washington's nearly three-year war against al-Qaeda has suddenly turned sour with reports the White House prematurely exposed the identity of a key source whose contacts and communication with the terrorist group's operational masterminds had yet to be fully exploited. The source, 25-year-old computer wizard Mohammed Naeem Noor Khan, had been cooperating with Pakistani police and the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) since he was quietly detained in Lahore on July 12, until the New York Times published his name last Monday after receiving a "background" briefing by the White House. British and Pakistani intelligence agencies were reportedly furious with the leak, which forced UK police to hurriedly round up 13 al-Qaeda suspects who are alleged to have been in email communication with Khan. Five others who were sought by MI5 reportedly escaped capture, and there is some question that the British had gathered enough evidence

Originally posted to lawnorder on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 02:08 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (4.00)
    Leave some juicy tips for the MSM here

    If being anti-child-sodomy is now considered the partisan position, then I'm going to be the biggest f---ing partisan on the planet.. - Hunter

    by lawnorder on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 02:04:26 AM PDT

    •  The Churchill story (none)
      is an urban legend.  See any of the post-Winterbotham histories of WW2 codebreaking for details.  
      •  in that vein ... (none)
        if there's any doubt about the Churchill story at all, I don't think you even need it, because this diary is so well-developed, and makes so many strong points. Thanks!

        "Nature favors the apt, not the strong or the weak." Louis Sullivan

        by Lilibeth on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 05:25:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Churchill maybe (4.00)
        Chalabi ain't. My guess is that it was Scooter again. The Veep's office loves that guy.

        The point was recently made that Iran has gotten everything that they could have possibly wanted, we gave it to them.

        1. Topple Saddam (they fought a war for 8 years to do this)

        2. Influence inside Iraq (way more than we have)

        3. Access to their religous sites in Karbala and Najaj

        4. The ability to focus on making nuclear weapons while a disjointed international front is focused on the chaos in Iraq.  (a smokescreen if you will)

        And of course they got the tip on the codes... we really could not have bungeled this anymore.
      •  Citations ... (none)
        would be appreciated ... had not heard this although I must admit that I have not been reading closely WWII histories in recent years.
    •  Re: "Kerry's "treason" (4.00)
      Was being "one of the team" and revealing wrongdoing by some members of the team which played a critical role in creating a climate of silence and shame for our returning Vietnam heroes and aided and abetted our enemies activities"

      I think you nail it right here in this section: it is about being a team player now - what Kos said is operable - that the elephant flies over the Stars and Stripes.

      That is the crux of the issue now and what I have been thinking about this past week. The Republicans have made this a zero sum game, like team sports. No longer is there a public good/public interest to be had; Bush said it himself, "you are either with us or against us." And that's how they come to their `new and improved definition of treason' (may Coulter ROT!) It is either all right or it is all wrong, so you have to, in that case, be on the winning team. This is the mentality of criminals, the mafia, sycophants and other worthless scum.

      I truly believe the Republican `mind' - if there is such a thing - is almost predisposed to accept this type of thinking, in lieu of the complications, contradictions and grey areas of life in the real modern world. We all know that only reality holds. Only objective truth can win the fight. All the bunk thoughts and ideas eventually fall away over time when the facts and evidence come out. The history of science proves that.

      They really don't believe what they are saying. That's why they have to scream everything they say. What a bunch of fucking cowards!

      To All Republicans: come with us to reality. It's okay. Your mommy is not going to change your diaper for you but at least here in reality-land the shit comes out of our ass and not out of our mouths!

      •  For GOP, War is a Team Sport (4.00)
        It's not just politics.  Coulter's own words tell you that:

        It is that the entire party cannot root for America.

        They've been putting up the banners.  They put Shock and Awe as entertainment.

        I just want to know when they'll start cruise trips to the front and schedule tailgate parties.

        •  If you've cut off your reality center, (4.00)
          which I believe is your sense of empathy and compassion, then you can view war as a team sport, or as others have called it, like a video game.

          You see it in all of their agenda: they can't put themselves in the shoes of brown people; they can't put themselves in the shoes of homosexuals; they can't put themselves in the shoes of pregnant women who aren't ready to have children...etc, etc.

          And back to the 'brown people' I mention. That is the REAL reason why it was okay to sell Iraq as linked to Al Qaeda, wasn't it? Or, at least for some of the 'base', that's all they needed...

        •  "cruise trips to the front" (4.00)
          This suddenly reminded me of "The Charge of the Light Brigade" and the eerie similarities between the circumstances surrounding the infamous event, recounted in the Tennyson poem, and the Iraq War.  During the battle itself, the families of the nobles waging the useless war gaily picnicked on the hill overlooking the scene.  Surveying the carnage below and the disconnect from reality exhibited by the observers, an allied French general remarked, "Ce nes't pas la guerre."

          There's a great book explaining how the circumstances of English society led to the massacre entitled, "The Reason Why," by Cecil Woodham-Smith.  It's basically an indictment of the English aristocrats inventing reasons to go to war (and having the peasants and mercenaries actually do the fighting), all the while ignoring the sage advice of experienced military men.  How could they be wrong?  They were BORN to lead!!

          Amazon Listing

          It opens as follows:

          MILITARY GLORY!  It was a dream that century after century had seized on men's imaginations and set their blood on fire.  Trumpets, plumes chargers, the pomp of war, the excitement of combat, the exultation of victory - the mixture was intoxicating indeed.  To command great armies, to perform deeds of valour, to ride victorious through flower-strewn streets, to be heroic, magnificent, famous - such were the visions that danced before men's eyes as they turned eagerly to war.
               It was not a dream for the common man.
           War was an aristocratic trade, and military glory reserve for nobles and princes.  Glittering squadrons of cavalry, long lines of infantry, wheeling obediently on the parade-ground, ministered to the lust both for power and for display. Courage was esteemed the essential military quality and held to be a virtue exclusive to aristocrats.

          The descriptions of the Earl of Cardigan (yeah, the guy who later "invented" the Cardigan sweater in the same way thet General Santa Ana moved to Brooklyn and "invented" chewing gum a few years after The Alamo) and his ilk also accurately portray, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Neocons.

          Anyway, it's a great book, easy to read and may leave you crying over the fate and true valor of "The Six-Hundred" who rode into the "Valley of Death."

          I bet Jesus would use His turn signals.

          by sxwarren on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 05:37:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Guess what... (none)
            ..some of us don't speak French. Could you translate please?
          •  Neocons - The new Aristocrats (none)
            Great catch! I noticed that too!

            Daily Kos: The New Feudal Age may start soon

            Rich Neocons - The new Aristocrats
            Are Bush and Neocons trying to bring about a second feudal age ? I think so, at least an ideological one. In this diary I will tell you my musings on how and why they may be somewhat successful..

            But, but... We dumped the King's tea at the harbor!
            You can easily see why rich neocons want nobility back: Remember, to the aristocrats the Feudal Age wasn't a dark age but a GOLDEN AGE, when everyone did their bidding AND paid them taxes.  

            But why would potential serfs help them ?
            And more importantly: With our current modern society how would they impose a new Feudalism ?

            Two new factors: Peak Oil and distributed terrorism

            If being anti-child-sodomy is now considered the partisan position, then I'm going to be the biggest f---ing partisan on the planet.. - Hunter

            by lawnorder on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 09:21:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  "Rooting for America" (none)
          For the disciples of Ann Coulter, involvement in civil society is a relegated to the role of the fan in a spectator sport.

          Your participation is limited to observation.

          Freedom does not march. I saw an invasion. I see an occupation. I don't see a war.

          by ex republican on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 06:27:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Where are the Pom Poms? (none)
          Rah Rah, Siss Boom Baah
          We are the Champions!
          We're #1!


          A society of sheep must beget in time a government of wolves. Bertrand de Jouvenel

          by Little Red Hen on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 08:09:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Rooting for America (none)
          "It is that the entire party cannot root for America."

          Coulter's a lying, sleazy media pig, as we all know.  So this is one of her less offensive quotes.

          But let's examine the mindset here.  

          America is not a noble ideal to her.  It's not a country founded on freedom and liberty.  Freedom and liberty aren't even important to the likes of her.

          All that matters is being part of the POWERFUL TRIBE.  It doesn't matter worth a damn to her if that tribe has good values, and/ or lives up to the lofty values it espouses.  Blind loyalty to power is all that matters.  

          Her values aren't worthy of a pack of wild dogs.  At least dogs don't lie.  And they're not moral cowards, like every single rightwinger in this country.

          Rightwinger hatemongers like Coulter the Talking Pig don't give a shit about America.  They never have and never will.  They have no values; no morals.

          They worship POWER.  It's their only God.

          That's why history is about to shake them off, and move on to a better time.

    •  Excellent diary ... (none)
      and an interesting bookend with  Oh, Good, I'm Not a Terrorist, which is also a MUST READ.

      Thank you for the effort ...

  •  No... (4.00)
    Treason is owned by KKKarl Rove.

    Treason is BushCo.

    They've defined it. For the first time in our nation's history, the White House has been caught outing an undercover CIA agent.

    After all the spin... this fact is inescapable. This is wha the GOP is about now. The Republican Party in my opinion should be dissolved. It's been caught working against the National Security of the People... and now they're trying to keep it from ending. They will be the death of us... quite literally, if we don't stop the GOP now and for good.

    This is TREASON. What they've done is the essence of what a movie about treason would be about. And like any good American, that's how I reason through all of life's important moral dilemmas.

    " admirable evasion of whoremaster man, to lay his goatish disposition to the charge of a star!"

    King Lear

    by Norwell on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 02:25:20 AM PDT

    •  Right on target ... (none)
      But there treason combines with criminal conspiracy ...

      •  Criminal conspiracy with energy "companies" like Enron to manipulate California energy market ...

      •  Criminal conspiracy (Republican Party) to suppress minority and other 'questionable' voter turnout during 2002 and 2004 election cycles ...

      And, so on ... treason is simply their latest criminal act ...
  •  Good job (none)
    even if the Churchill story is urban legend. Do some further research if if it doesn't pan out your diary will not suffer because you still have enough to show the hypocrisy of this administration.

    Someday, after the forest fire of the Right has died we'll say "Whew, I'm happy that's over."

    by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 02:58:10 AM PDT

  •  Bravo - What a Great Diary - A must Recommend! (none)
    what great work at this hour in the morning.
    •  Sunday AM - best time for me (none)
      Kids tucked in bed, a full weekend of rest and energy restoring fun... My philosophical side is at a peak :-)

      If being anti-child-sodomy is now considered the partisan position, then I'm going to be the biggest f---ing partisan on the planet.. - Hunter

      by lawnorder on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 09:32:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  FDR ends WWII, Bush compares him to Hitler (4.00)
    Don't forget this one: "The agreement at Yalta followed in the unjust tradition of Munich and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact," Bush added, referring to two treaties that cleared the way for World War II. "Once again, when powerful governments negotiated, the freedom of small nations was somehow expendable."

    FDR ends the bloodshed in most of Europe and Bush scolds him for not invading Russia. With what army? Bush apparently never calculates where the troops come from in the past and the present. This comment still burns me with Bush's handholding of Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan. Bush is right when he says he's done more for human rights than any other President. More to fuck them up.

    'Just World News' by Helena Cobban, it's like Juan Cole with comments

    by joejoejoe on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 03:36:14 AM PDT

  •  you may want to add, ... (none)
    ...the smear the Goopers used in 2004 campaign, that voting for Kerry is a vote for Bin laden

  •  what the GOP likes to forget about real treason (4.00)
    Two words: Robert Hanssen

    Ultra-conservative gun collector and anti-abortionist, Opus Dei member, sexual pervert and FBI agent convicted of spying for the Soviet Union.

  •  Dob't forget Khan (4.00)
    Double agent in Pkistan revealed by BushCO.

    When the rest of the world decides to take care of the bully, I hope I'm not in Columbine.

    by georgeNOTw on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 05:11:31 AM PDT

  •  Wasn't McVey (none)
    a republican?
    Also the guy that did the abortion bombings and Atlanta Olympics bombing?

    And we got the Uni-bomber and a couple "eco-terrorists"

    When the rest of the world decides to take care of the bully, I hope I'm not in Columbine.

    by georgeNOTw on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 05:13:54 AM PDT

    •  The unabomber was not a registered Democrat (none)
      and neither are the eco-terrorists.
      •  I'm not sure what an "eco-terrorist" is (none)
        I think its an urban any non-apocryphal cases?  I know some fingers have spiked old growth redwoods, but they are for God's sake protected and aren't supposed to be cut down anyway...anybody got an actually factual incident?

        They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety -- Ben Franklin

        by TheGryphon on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 05:35:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  er fingers was supposed to be "fringers" (none)
          need more coffee

          They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety -- Ben Franklin

          by TheGryphon on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 05:36:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Tre Arrow? (none)
          Don't know whether or not he's a Democrat.  Here's the news of his arrest:

          If you Google "Earth Liberation Front," you'll come across numerous stories of property destruction - homes, equipment, etc. - for which the ELF has claimed reponsibility.  I don't know, however, how anyone can vouch for the political affiliations of those who carried out such activities.

          "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

          by fishhead on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 08:24:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  are we to equate property damage to terrorism? (none)
            Or tar an entire community for the acts of a handful of extremists?  

            This "terrorism" talk has got to stop.

            They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety -- Ben Franklin

            by TheGryphon on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 01:14:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I have no opinion on that (none)
              I was merely responding to your question as to whether there was anything beyond tree-spiking that was not apocryphal.  But having said that, if someone burned down my home (the ELF has torched subdivisions in places where they opposed development), I'd feel pretty terrorized.

              "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

              by fishhead on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 09:01:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  The Tribal Republican Right (4.00)
    The comments reviewed above are essentially examples of tribalism.  Except in the South, and during the brief ascendancy of the anti-Catholic Know-nothings before the Civil War, the United States has been insulated from this form of political malignancy, which is typically grounded in rural communities that remain comparatively isolated from metropolitan culture. They are an easy target for reactionary politicians and interest groups to exploit.

    With the exception of the pre-Civil Rights South, tribalism has been lodged in the Republican Party since the 1920s, but its malignancy was checked by the dominance of that party by the nation's urban financial and industrial elite.  That is no longer the case.

    If you look at the social make-up of the radical right, you see that it is almost exclusively white, mainly rural or small town, and, I conjecture, on average poorer than the average American. These are people afraid of change, afraid of outsiders, and afraid of anything that seems to threaten their identity as members of a tribe.  The tribe, or shall we call it for what it really is, the VOLK, is the supreme value for these people.  Nothing else, certainly not truth or logic, matters.

    •  Those statements need to be (none)
      engraved in stone and expanded to a further explanation of what has happened to the republican party over the last 40 years.  Tribalism does explain alot of how they are actings and reacting to the world.

      It will take a generation or two to straighten out this mess, and my only hope is that historians take a true look at these current events and put them into some context, like you have done.

      It is as if 50% of America is being mass hypotised.  Logic, reason, facts, anything just seem to get in the way of Frank Luntz's wordsmithing.  

      How WILL history regard our current troubles?  I believe that if America does not rebound in the next 5 years or so, we will indeed become a second rate country.

    •  exploitation (4.00)
      Very interesting. Most important of all, I think, is your statement about the exploitation of this group by politicans and interest groups. These people are the base. The actual movers and shakers in the party don't fall into the same sort of categories, except in a few instances (wacko religious right). Coulter and her ilk are only gleefully stoking the flames, keeping the base fired up. The underlying agenda for the upper echelons of the party is something far more insidious: greed.

      How to show the tribe that they're being exploited? I tend to think more and more that the best answer is grassroots activism. These are the people we should be working on - not fighting the battles in D.C. so much. The political strategist big boys have a couple of huge advantages over us. They are holding all the strings right now, for one thing. They clearly are not bound by any pangs of conscience. They are capable of remaining on the offensive on virtually all issues, keeping the attacks coming, switching from attack to attack, while we attempt to rationally deconstruct each individual attack. Perhaps their biggest advantage is pounded home to me every time I read the discussions here: it's about the nuances. This site has seen its divisions. Lately it's the matter of Judge Roberts. It's a necessary evil (?) of the big tent that we see things in different ways. That never happens with them.

      Maybe there's a way to use that as a strength when it gets down to the grassroots. I think a tribe can understand nuances.

      "People of the world: today, let us turn back the clock to 9/12/01, and today, let us all once again be Americans." -JFK's inaugural address, 1/20/05

      by shroomdoc on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 08:24:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Second that (none)
        Our trenches should be in local communities, working with local issues, to demonstrate for the undecided the abuse of power at all levels of Republican authority. Please beware the transparent bias here, but I really hope that we on the left can focus on making the House and the senate more liberal, as well as pushing a presidential candidate. I think it's been effectively proven that a grandstanding spoiler DOES not help advance a liberal agenda.

        "Nature favors the apt, not the strong or the weak." Louis Sullivan

        by Lilibeth on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 09:02:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  By contrast, urban dwellers (none)
      quickly learn to cope with diversity as a survival skill, rely upon it for market benefit, and later learn to relish its vibrancy.

      A well written comment.  I would be interested in reading any books you'd recommend on this subject (perhaps your own).

      Which minority group would Jesus hate?

      by NorCalJim on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 09:05:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is so very sadly true (none)
    Dean, Reid, and Pelosi need to bang this drum.  Please, pass this along if you've got connections.

    "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

    by The Termite on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 06:30:51 AM PDT

  •  Ah, yes--Dissent in time of war = Treason (4.00)
    as per:

    Here's why I think Joe Wilson is a traitor:

    When the US has soldiers in combat, disagreeing with the policy that got them there should not be taken lightly. Even if the criticism is valid and undeniably true, the friction will give aid and comfort to the enemy -- especially in a war like this where the enemies strategic thrust is to destroy our political will.

    That's not to say that dissent should be squelched. In many cases dissent is necessary or even critical. But the dissenter must be fully aware that the dissent will often result in the death of soldiers in the field or a weakening of the war effort.

    Understanding the above, dissent for pure political gain is a no-no in my book.

    To which I say:


    Freedom isn't free. So why are you bitching about taxes?

    by Sylvester McMonkey Mcbean on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 07:14:57 AM PDT

    •  Huh? (none)
      Are these pictures really relevant -- or accurate -- now that we know what a chief executive and his lackeys are REALLY up to? While Clinton made some poor, opportunistic military choices, none of them are remotely eqivalent to sending an entire nation to war on false pretenses and for personal profit (i.e. Halliburton). If you put Clinton's head on Hitler's body, where would you suggest we stick W's?

      "Nature favors the apt, not the strong or the weak." Louis Sullivan

      by Lilibeth on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 08:57:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Those are pictures from Conservative (4.00)

        See, they are criticizing the president in time of war.

        According the the GOP, that = Treason.

        I was just showing how this line of reasoning is bogus, since they have engaged in exactly the same behavior, and apparently it wasn't treason then.

        Sorry if it wasn't very clear.

        Freedom isn't free. So why are you bitching about taxes?

        by Sylvester McMonkey Mcbean on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 09:10:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  THANK YOU (none)
          .... yeah, there are a lot of Clinton haters on this site (which is legitimate, even if I don't agree), so it wasn't exactly clear what they meant. Thanks for the clarification ... and now that I know the source, they're disturbing in a new, worse way ...

          "Nature favors the apt, not the strong or the weak." Louis Sullivan

          by Lilibeth on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 09:16:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If I've learned anything... (none)
          its that republicans have incredibly short memory.
          If you call them on it, they then start talking really fast, trying to come up with justifications for how they acted in the Clinton era, none of which makes a bit of sense (to anyone with a brain cell anyway!)

          The only Bush I trust is my own - I want my freaking democracy back!

          by mytribe on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 10:53:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Treason against what (none)
    The Republicans are right, if you look at their basic premise.

    They believe that the only party that cares about America is the Republican Party.  Anything that opposes that party is equivalent to opposing America.

    Ergo, all Democrats must be traitors, as we oppose the Repblicans.

    In fact, the Churchill story is something they could use as a justifictaion for outing Plame.

    Both Wilson and Plame were threats to the republicans, therfore they were traitors and must be summarily punished.  Sacrificing a major intelligence assest, including her sources afield, woudl be akin to sacrificing Coventry.

    We have often said that they place Party above country.  What we ignore at our peril is that for many on the right, the party and the country are one and the same.

    Bush, so incompetent, he can't even do the wrong things right.

    by JAPA21 on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 07:23:47 AM PDT

  •  The bullshit of all bullshit (4.00)
    is Pat Robert's upcoming hearings, which will be an attempt to lower the bar for "outing" covert agents. In announcing the hearings on CNN, he went ahead with the standard GOP talking points that Valerie Wilson was a desk jockey with low priority covert status. The NY Times goes for it hook, line and sinker:
    The Senate Intelligence Committee will conduct hearings on American spy agencies' use of cover to protect the identities of intelligence officers, the committee chairman said on Sunday.

    The chairman, Senator Pat Roberts, Republican of Kansas, said on the CNN program "Late Edition" that the committee was "going to go into quite a series of hearings in regard to cover." The practice of intelligence cover has come under scrutiny during the investigation of the disclosure of the C.I.A. employment of Valerie Wilson, who had worked under cover for the agency for 18 years before being publicly identified as a C.I.A. operative in 2003.
    Larry C. Johnson, a former C.I.A. analyst who trained with Ms. Wilson and who organized the letter, said in an interview that "there are lives on the line" in the leak of a covert operative's true identity, because foreigners known to have met with the operative may come under suspicion as possible American agents.
    But another former C.I.A. officer, Reuel Marc Gerecht, called Ms. Wilson's cover "very, very soft" and said cover "is the Achilles' heel of the agency." He said both "official cover," in which C.I.A. officers pose as diplomats, and "nonofficial cover," like that used by Ms. Wilson, in which officers use nongovernmental identities, are too often easily penetrated by foreign intelligence agencies.

    Read more about Richard Perle wannabe Gerecht, because you're going to be seeing a lot more of him now that Larry C. Johnson has inflicted real damage to the GOP. Then determine for yourself why he is getting column space from the paper of record.

    "Quite a series of hearings in regard to cover" says Pat Roberts? Cover your ass is more like it. Hey, Pat, how's the second phase of the intelligence failure hearings coming along? Feel free to take all the time you need, including long detours to erect a fishing expedition for wing-nut wackos to smear Valerie Wilson for the benefit of the Congressional Record.

  •  Greenpeace tresspassing (none)
    on someone else's property and putting a banner there is protected free speech?
    •  I did a little more research on this (none)
      Apparently the two activists involved were sentenced to time served (a weekend in jail) for tresspassing. The justice department then tried to charge them under an obscure slander-like charge, claiming that the boat didn't contain contraband (it did). The charges were later dropped.

      I don't recall anyone referring to this as treasonous. This example really doesn't belong here.

  •  Most non-extreme Republicans DON'T like Coulter. (none)
    At least, that's been my experience.  Even the average Rush Limbaugh listener thinks Coulter is over-the-top.

    When you try to criticize Republicans in general by citing Coulter -- or when you try to represent Coulter's view as "The Republican View" -- your claims are pretty much going to go nowhere.  It's kind of similar to citing the views of Ward Churchill as "The Liberal Point of View".

    •  If that's true (none)
      Then who is buying all those books that make her a best-selling (koff) writer?

      My guess is that even people who think she is over the top think that her exaggerations are based on correct thought. That is, they see her as more like a satirist. They really do see her as the equivilent of Michael Moore or Al Franken -- "she's so over the top it's funny, but she has a point."

      The right wing does try to claim that people like Ward Churchill represent "the liberal point of view," even when we state unequivocably, "he doesn't speak for me." I have never heard a Republican denounce Coulter, or say "she doesn't speak for me." Not once. Not ever.

      So, "non-extreme" Republicans -- if you don't approve of Ms. Coulter, prove it. Start denouncing her statements when she advocates acts of terrorism such as blowing up the New York Times building.

      Otherwise, I'm going to continue assuming that she says the things you believe in your heart of hearts but don't dare say out loud.

      •  It doesn't take a whole lot of people (none)
        to make someone a bestseller, at least when you're comparing it to the entire pool of voters.

        Coulter's last book sold somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million copies.  So, clearly, at least half a million people either (a) agree with her views, (b) think she's entertaining, or (c) want to read the books for some other reason.

        The people in (a) are real nutjobs.

        But remember, SIXTY TWO MILLION people voted for Bush in 2004.  Even if every single person who bought Coulter's book voted for Bush, that's still less than ONE PERCENT of Bush voters who bought the book.

        Granted, those are some seriously rough figures.  But I think it's pretty clear that there's no argument to be made that "most republicans" buy Coulter's arguments.

        •  that's what they want you to believe (none)
          Coulter's last book sold somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million copies.  So, clearly, at least half a million people either (a) agree with her views, (b) think she's entertaining, or (c) want to read the books for some other reason.

          don't buy into this.  

          part of the R propaganda machine involves bulk buying the books they want to promote.  it's worth it to them, like advertising for their rising stars, to spend a large six or seven figure sum buying the latest Regnery book and distributing them for free to political clubs or at fundraising events.  it is a cheap way to manipulate the best seller lists to make it look as though their views are more popular than they really are.

          I wouldn't be surprised if the count of people who actually bought and read Ann's book on their own was a five figure number.  It's not like that constituency reads nonfiction books for pleasure.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 13, 2005 at 07:52:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  And for what it's worth... (none)
        ...I still don't understand why people seem to think Al Franken is "over the top."  Michael Moore, sure -- he's definitely got a big honkin' tinfoil hat on sometimes.  But Franken's very reasonable, and while he cracks a lot of jokes, when he's actually trying to make a point, he's very levelheaded.
  •  Guess I'm treasonous (4.00)
    Which is ironic, considering so many of them deferred, and I served. It's ironic, considering I'm over here for four months, while they have to scoot in under cover of night in total secrecy, shuttle themselves from highly secure compound to highly secure compound, and steal out again under cover of night, hoping all the while that they'll be praised for their bravery. Ironic, considering that I've got more overseas service then these mugs are likely to ever see.

    They can call me a traitor, but I know I'm more of a patriot then they can ever be in their wildest flag-fetish wet dreams, wet dreams where Lady Liberty has them bent over and she's spanking them for failing to eradicate the liberal menace. I'm more of a patriot then all these weak kneed chickenhawk pieces of shit who've never fallen asleep to the sounds of gunfire or had explosions wake them up. They've never done a 72 hr work week, and if they have, they've been paid a damn sight better for it then I am. Worthless slimy tiny-dicked toadlicking boot kissing neocon shithead chickenhawks. Call me a traitor, they don't know the meaning of the word patriotic or treasonous.

    In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. -Thomas Jefferson

    by jabbausaf on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 10:30:36 AM PDT

    •  Stay safe... (none)
      Take care.  Thank you for your service.

      "[A] 'Sharecropper's Society' [is] precisely where our trade policies, supported by Republicans and Democrats alike, are taking us." - Warren Buffet

      by RichM on Mon Jul 25, 2005 at 01:09:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In a time of war (none)
    #1. In a time of war, if the leaders don't fix problems a.s.a.p. (Abu Ghraib, lack of armor, heeding warnings in 2000 by Clinton Administration about Bin Laden as #1 issue)-- what is a citizen/patriot to do except speak out?

    Sincerely. I ask:  what is a citizen/patriot supposed to do? Form secret advisory committees and get private meetings with the leaders??

    #2. Reality-based community:  "give aid and comfort to the enemy"? For the record, we should compile and distribute what is really known about what activities give aid and comfort to the enemy.
    (failing to secure high explosives in Iraq, training and arming the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the first place, using the "Crusade" word, to suggest a few. Sorry, I'm confusing "aid and comfort" with "inflaming")

  •  More "treason" accusations while Rove.. (none)
    is free

    Daily Kos: My "buddy" Col. Bob Pappas on why Cindy Sheehan is a Traitor

        Hurting Mother" or Traitor?
        by Col Bob Pappas, USMC, Ret.

        The writer doesn't know Cindy Sheehan, but has to wonder about her. Additionally, is her protest of her own doing or is she being supported by the radical left? Does so called, "free expression" guaranteed by the First Article of Amendment to the US Constitution obviate Article III, Section 3?

    That's a new one!  Free speech doesn't include the right to protest a war, at least if you are part of the "radical left."  Obviosusly that doesn't apply to members of the GOP and FOX News who protested against President Clinton's employment of US forces in Bosnia/Serbia and Kosovo, but then the Constitutional guarantees in the Bill of Rights were obviously not intended to protect leftists.  I'm sure Madison wrote about that somewhere in the Federalist papers, right?

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